Curse

master of cookies · Jun 14, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

guys seriously, dont be so melodramatic! we pve'ers now have to think outside the box - hey look there is no box! armour isnt the only way to reduce damage: [skill]Stoneflesh Aura[/skill] [skill]"They're on fire!"[/skill] [skill]Armor of Sanctity[/skill]
tanks mite actually have to get a team member ot help them by bringing they're on fire! in DoA to reduce damage, dervs using armor of sanctity will reduce damage, they mite even do it better than a warrior now that the warior cant stack the skills. Armor of earth or kinetic armor will prob become the staple for tanks coz it can be kept up indefinietly (may take skill in kinetic's case but id like to think we have some skill) and provides alot of armour. Come on it makes us think more and change builds, and *shock horror* paragons may get into DoA carrying ToF! how radical is that!

Lagg · Jun 14, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Please, stop the namecalling, the below-the-belt jabs and other unniceties.

Armor is not the be-all end-all that Makes You Win The Game™.

Nor was it ever deserving of such a nerf.

It was, however, deserving of some changes. Everyone can agree that stacking those Paragon skills is just a cheap game mechanic.

However, I'm afraid that this is a less than elegant solution.

It fundamentally changes a game which is way past its early development stages.

We need some kind of official reaction on this.

Or at the very least wait till the patch is actually released.

master of cookies · Jun 14, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Or at the very least wait till the patch is actually released.

Do we know when that will be yet? im guessing tomorrow with the changes for the weekend.

Lonesamurai · Jun 14, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

PvE has almost never been balanced, readjusted or whatever. They added enchantment removal mobs to stop some forms of solo farming and guess what, it still works.

I think your major problem is that GW is not about PvP only, and specifically one form of PvP, GvG. That is the basic flaw.

PvP has always had priority, but priority does not mean that everything else does not need to be taken in account either. This is where Isaiah Cartwright and his fellows totally fail.

ANet is shooting themselves in the leg when they cater mainly to one form of PvP, whose players already yell at every occasion they will play "Fury" as soon as it got released.

I am pretty sure I who call myself a PvE player do a lot more of PvP than people who are rarely online and playing at all but cannot stop singing the holy chant that PvP is the end all of GW. This is BS.

Totally with you on the changes that didn't work, but my theory and reasoning is sound, just unused

Dione Davore · Jun 14, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I'm charing my gaming experience as well then ^^

It doesn't affect my rangers build at all since I don't play with def. boosts.

I've cleared all missions in Hard Mode and am currently working on vanquisher (28/33 cantha, 17/34 elona) without the use of def. buffs.

Normaly I play with the following hero's (A combination of):
- Myself being broad head arrow ranger with whirling def, throw dirt and lightning reflexes.
- Norgu, powerblock mesmer with leech signer, shatter enchant, backfire and empathy.
- Master of whispers running a enfeebling blood, arcane echo, spiteful spirit with leech signet and drain enchantment.
- Acolythe Sousoke is my blinding b*tch. Blinding surge, lightning orb, attunement and shields up.
- Tahlkora is a Protmonk with shield of regeneration monk with hex and condition remove.

If someone else joins me he always takes another necro that is skilled like master of whispers and another monk with LoD. Then a Minion Master is very cool as well. And ofcourse the class the friend is playing.

How I defend then?
I will simply tank the enemies with my ranger. Prot-spirit, Healing Seed + Whirling Defense take out the first damage. Blind the docked melee's with throw dirt and the hexes have effect on everybody when my stance/prot spirit ends. I'll target the nearest monk myself with broad head and the hexes kill everybody within no time and I'm off to the next group.

upier · Jun 14, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitorgo

Umm.. I don't think "tanking" should be considered a cookie cutter thing. It is just plain good tactics. Do you put a force field behind the ship? Do you put the artillary in front of the infrantry?

True - but do you send a 70 armour assassin to the front lines?
Is that good tactics?

Point is - it is a game. And it would be nice if we were allowed to play it in various ways - instead of just one. Since some classes have serious issues with THAT way.
That's my only problem - we are losing options and NEED to play the game in a very restrictive way.
That's the thing that is bothersome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y O U Lo Se

Everyone saying this is PvP's fault, you're blind morons. This was an obvious PvE DoA nerf, so ppl finally have to do something.

So thank you moron PvE'ers for ruining our loved Paragon high armor builds in PvP>.>

(off GWO)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterfingers

Unfortunately the other thread got drowned in complaints and stuff...
What I want to know is why isn't there any explanation to armor stacking nerf? Every other change seem to be at least somewhat commented... Why was this needed? What goals behind?

Here's an answer directly from Izzy:

The main reason was we felt that the passive defensive skills really slow down the game and we’ve been pushing more active play and trying to nerf things like Defensive Anthem and other very easy to use passive defensives. When we looked over the armor stacking we noticed that in order to fix the problem with skill changes we would have to change a lot of skills. We felt those changes really hurt a lot more characters then we wanted, so we decided to put a cap on armor buffs instead. We know it’s not the most elegant solution but we already do it in a number of places and we felt by doing it here we would address several problems without having to damage a large number of skill interactions.

So the main goal is to allow for some passive defense but to discourage teams from having a large number of armor buffs working together to reduce damage to almost nothing. That is not fun to play against and there are very few things in the game that help you deal with a super high armored target.

Notice the bolded part?
You were calling names?

Thomas.knbk · Jun 14, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Please stop with the Paragon Class hate.

The fact is, the paragon is a) quite weak on its own and b) gets stronger the more you put in a team, to the point where having 5 in a team with the right skill bar is bloody rediculous. Paragons need 3 skills for their offense (barbed spear, vicious spear, aggressive refrain), which gives them the option to pack 5 defensive skills. And hey! Look! Paragons actually HAVE defensive skills! This was bound to lead to a build like this from the start.

Setting the armor cap to any less than the current amount would've done absolutely nothing to the paragon teams with 150 armor, defensive anthem, restoration and that other shout that heals your entire party.

If DoA really becomes undoable (but I doubt it. There's a million defensive skills out there that don't rely on armor), they could always adjust the amount of mobs, or make their damage slightly less retarded. This is always a possible solution actually, which is why in skill balances PvP should always come first.

BTW, for the people saying Anet hates farming, think of this: Arenanet at first didn't implement Hard Mode in challenges, because they couldn't understand why someone would purposely gimp himself in a challenge, because this would undoubtly lead to a lower score. They implemented it because they found out people farmed there.

This thread sickens me. I couldn't get myself to reading past page 8. If someone on those pages posted the ultimate all problem solving solution, I apologize for missing it.

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Ok, so lets just look at this example please. I just completed Minister Cho's estate on HM with the skill bars in the screenie. Ok its searing way, but it works and got me a masters.

However, Razah died over and over untill he was at 60% DP, I still managed the win by killing mobs quickly enough.

Razah's armor - 60+10 (while holding urn) + 24 (from urn) +16 + 24 (WYS, SYG) = 134 ar, + -29% damage from ToF.

And he still died over and over again. And why didnt I use PS? Because PS is broken on hero AI. Why didnt I get a human monk? Because there werent any.

HM is going to be a sad sad place with this armor nerf.

Oh, and Izzy is great at balancing this game isnt he? /NOT

Apollo33 · Jun 14, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If DoA really becomes undoable (but I doubt it. There's a million defensive skills out there that don't rely on armor), they could always adjust the amount of mobs, or make their damage slightly less retarded. This is always a possible solution actually, which is why in skill balances PvP should always come first.

BTW, for the people saying Anet hates farming, think of this: Arenanet at first didn't implement Hard Mode in challenges, because they couldn't understand why someone would purposely gimp himself in a challenge, because this would undoubtly lead to a lower score. They implemented it because they found out people farmed there.

This thread sickens me. I couldn't get myself to reading past page 8. If someone on those pages posted the ultimate all problem solving solution, I apologize for missing it.

Just for your information, Hard Mode in challenges WAS implemented since the beginning. They only removed it in the first June 7th update (and then replaced it in the second update). This is how the Remains of Sahlahja became such a popular farming location in the first place.

The problem with the developers, in my humble opinion, is that they don't fully consider how changes will affect PvE players. They put the Hard Mode back in challenge areas once they realized why people were using it. However, the question remains... Why couldn't they see this to begin with? Any PvE player in NF could tell you why people used Hard Mode in the challenge missions. It's so much easier to get the 50,000 points needed for Lightbringer and Sunspear outside of the Remains of Sahlahja. ANet claims to be against grinding, but why add such titles? Also, Vanquisher may be easier when you leave from the challenge mission areas. I haven't yet tried to go for Vanquisher titles yet, so I'm not entirely certain.

ANet is so focused on "fixing" problems in PvP that they seem to forget that PvP is linked with PvE (which appears to have been a horrible decision). Sure, it seems like a great idea to make skills work the same in PvE and PvP so that players can easily switch between the two, but more often than not you'll have to adjust your build to work in PvP anyway. So why not just keep the two separate? If I wanted to take the effort to get into PvP, then I'm sure I'd be more than happy to learn the builds and such required even if it required learning some skill differences between PvP and PvE. Certainly it'd be hard for them to change this now, especially with GW2 coming out in a year or two. I hope this is changed in GW2. At least in GW:EN we'll be getting 50 PvE-only skills that won't have to be nerfed like crazy just to "improve" PvP once some players figure out how to exploit them.

I don't think that ANet hates farming, but I think they're so out-of-touch with the PvE community that they have no idea what they're doing.

Bryant Again · Jun 14, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo33

I don't think that ANet hates farming, but I think they're so out-of-touch with the PvE community that they have no idea what they're doing.

I'm going to have to fully and completely disagree with you.

Mai · Jun 14, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Ok, so lets just look at this example please. I just completed Minister Cho's estate on HM with the skill bars in the screenie. Ok its searing way, but it works and got me a masters.

However, Razah died over and over untill he was at 60% DP, I still managed the win by killing mobs quickly enough.

Razah's armor - 60+10 (while holding urn) + 24 (from urn) +16 + 24 (WYS, SYG) = 134 ar, + -29% damage from ToF.

And he still died over and over again. And why didnt I use PS? Because PS is broken on hero AI. Why didnt I get a human monk? Because there werent any.

HM is going to be a sad sad place with this armor nerf.

Oh, and Izzy is great at balancing this game isnt he? /NOT

Wrong.

Hero AI is decent with PS and you went into the mission poory equipped for the situation. The only difference is that Hero AI monks react after some form of spike and cast PS on you after the spike. There is absolutely nothing wrong in pre-protting yourself by just clicking PSpirit yourself before you get into a fight. Looking at your skillbars of your heroes it's generic, I have no idea why you brought a charge elite on your para into the mission since you can jog into masters in Cho's. Raz was used poorly by making him a heal rit instead of a shelter/union spirit spammer to help reduce the widespread AoE dmg of afflicted explosions.

Another note, why bring breath of fire? It causes scatter in hard mode which makes the situation worse than it really is when the mobs scatter.

You didn't prove anything from your screenshot other then your lack of putting together a decent party for missions in hard mode it seems.

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo33

I don't think that ANet hates farming, but I think they're so out-of-touch with the PvE community that they have no idea what they're doing.

Well im fully agreed with that regardless of what others think.

Apollo33 · Jun 14, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm going to have to fully and completely disagree with you.

If ANet really hated farming, why not just COMPLETELY REMOVE the -50 Health Grim Cesta from the game? That'd effectively kill any and all 55 Monk builds. That'd also have stopped all the bots in Begen Bot Springs, no banning of innocent human players required. However, it would have also prevented ANYONE from using a 55 build. ANet can't completely be against farming, it's probably why many people still play. After you finish all the quests and missions with all your characters, how do you get the money you need for the armor or titles that you want?

Bryant Again · Jun 14, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo33

If ANet really hated farming, why not just COMPLETELY REMOVE the -50 Health Grim Cesta from the game? That'd effectively kill any and all 55 Monk builds. That'd also have stopped all the bots in Begen Bot Springs, no banning of innocent human players required. However, it would have also prevented ANYONE from using a 55 build. ANet can't completely be against farming, it's probably why many people still play. After you finish all the quests and missions with all your characters, how do you get the money you need for the armor or titles that you want?

My quote was mostly towards your completely bogus line of "ANet is out of touch with the PvE community". If anything, ANet is out of touch with the PvP community. I just found that line rather insulting, and this is coming from a hardcore PvE'r.

GloryFox · Jun 14, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Here's an answer directly from Izzy:

The main reason was we felt that the passive defensive skills really slow down the game and we’ve been pushing more active play and trying to nerf things like Defensive Anthem and other very easy to use passive defensives. When we looked over the armor stacking we noticed that in order to fix the problem with skill changes we would have to change a lot of skills. We felt those changes really hurt a lot more characters then we wanted, so we decided to put a cap on armor buffs instead. We know it’s not the most elegant solution but we already do it in a number of places and we felt by doing it here we would address several problems without having to damage a large number of skill interactions.

So the main goal is to allow for some passive defense but to discourage teams from having a large number of armor buffs working together to reduce damage to almost nothing. That is not fun to play against and there are very few things in the game that help you deal with a super high armored target.

Fine then keep it in the PvP realm then. I am convinced you are so out of touch with the PvE community you make choices on PvP alone without regard to the PvE experience. Many would say thats a good thing until you realize that PvE makes up for 90% of your game community.

If this change goes through you will have a major revolt on your hands as the PvE community as a whole just won't tolerate it. I personally know of over 37 people who have left the game already never to return because their experience was ruined by PvP effects on the PvE aspects of the game.

If this change is so important for PvP then please please please keep it in PvP only realm.

Red Sonya · Jun 14, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I only want to discuss one change in the DEV update.

How will the Armor de-stack update affect your ability to beat some missions such as DoA and RoT in Hard Mode? Will the standard DoA team build be possible anymore with the OF Tank build null and void?

I can think of a few Tactics builds I use. Combinations that have Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Disciplined Stance, Stand your Ground and Dolyak Signet just to name a few skills will no longer be viable stack options anymore.

Was Armor stacking that abusive in PvP and GvG?

Yes, it was and not only that but was abusing exploiting the ai which would never use these combos. You are suppose to be "competitive" vs anyone including the ai, not be practically invincible and this was what was happening vs the ai in many places not just DOA. In pvp the arenas of RA, AB and FA saw the obsidian tank quite often. Unless you have a specific build against it it is quite invincible you can't do any damage and all you will see is 0's above the players head as you bang and bang and bash and bash on them. This was not Anets intention for players to be able to build a character this way. But, leave it to the players to screw things up by exploiting anything and everything they can to get the upperhand or an advantage. They have no one to blame but themselves for not even realizing what they were doing was just exploiting the mechanics of the skills.

I'm very happy with the nerf. I tried an Obsidian tank one in FA an although yeah it's funny to watch people try to kill you and the luxon warriors can't even touch you, but, it's also easy to realize that is unfair to the rest ot the participants, the ai and the overall game. People will just have to adapt now to the reality that they will no longer be invincible and have to learn "skills" and "strategy" and "tactics" instead of just pushing buttons 1-2-3-tab.

Quote:

If this change goes through you will have a major revolt on your hands as the PvE community as a whole just won't tolerate it. I personally know of over 37 people who have left the game already never to return because their experience was ruined by PvP effects on the PvE aspects of the game.

Lol this is what I would call hotdogging for your rights. Threaten to quit, threaten a revolt that will never take place, throw out an undocumented number of people that support you and there you have it hotdogged rights. hahaha

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Wrong.

Hero AI is decent with PS and you went into the mission poory equipped for the situation. The only difference is that Hero AI monks react after some form of spike and cast PS on you after the spike. There is absolutely nothing wrong in pre-protting yourself by just clicking PSpirit yourself before you get into a fight. Looking at your skillbars of your heroes it's generic, I have no idea why you brought a charge elite on your para into the mission since you can jog into masters in Cho's. Raz was used poorly by making him a heal rit instead of a shelter/union spirit spammer to help reduce the widespread AoE dmg of afflicted explosions.

Another note, why bring breath of fire? It causes scatter in hard mode which makes the situation worse than it really is when the mobs scatter.

You didn't prove anything from your screenshot other then your lack of putting together a decent party for missions in hard mode it seems.

In a 4 man mission, razah is a lot better with that bar then a monk hero.

Breath of fire is used to make enemy mobs scatter. They dont attack for a few seconds, and they actually still take 3 hits from it. For the energy cost it is a very good spell.

Charge/Fallback = Mission done faster, less time wasted.

I got gaurdian of tyria in four days using builds I specified and people able to play them, so I think I know how to put a decent party together for HM.

As for the shelter suggestion, you do know it dies pretty fast then you end up screwed right? Its pointless in HM.

The only thing I get screwed by is the lack of puggers able to play decent bars.

Thomas.knbk · Jun 14, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Ok, so lets just look at this example please. I just completed Minister Cho's estate on HM with the skill bars in the screenie. Ok its searing way, but it works and got me a masters.

However, Razah died over and over untill he was at 60% DP, I still managed the win by killing mobs quickly enough.

Razah's armor - 60+10 (while holding urn) + 24 (from urn) +16 + 24 (WYS, SYG) = 134 ar, + -29% damage from ToF.

And he still died over and over again. And why didnt I use PS? Because PS is broken on hero AI. Why didnt I get a human monk? Because there werent any.

HM is going to be a sad sad place with this armor nerf.

Oh, and Izzy is great at balancing this game isnt he? /NOT

I don't see your point. If anything, you proved missions in HM are still doable. Yeah, your razah got 60DP and kept dying, but you got the masters reward anyway now didn't you?

HawkofStorms · Jun 14, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Could we cut it out guys? Stop bragging about your HM accomplishments/tearing down everybody else's ability and their builds.

Just, try to redirrect the discussion back to what it's supposed to be about please.

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I don't see your point. If anything, you proved missions in HM are still doable. Yeah, your razah got 60DP and kept dying, but you got the masters reward anyway now didn't you?

The point is that you still take too much damage in HM with all the armor buffs. at the soon to be 85 max armor possible for a caster, they will just fall like flys in HM.

And this mission is one of the easiest ones and doesnt compare to places like eternal grove and vizunah square which are totally un henchable.

PVP is still 'doable' with the armor buffs, so by your logic it didnt need nerfing.